Curse

Karate Jesus · Aug 23, 2010, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

Precisely. Enough said.

Macro = Botting = Macro = Botting = Macro = Botting

There's no way around it.

But he didn't use his macros to do ToPK. He just used them to run. And, as far as I'm aware, that's never been something that Anet bans for.

And honestly, macros have been used for years in PvP and never been an issue. He was probably banned because they thought he was a ToPK bot.

Light And Peace · Aug 23, 2010, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

Precisely. Enough said.

Macro = Botting = Macro = Botting = Macro = Botting

There's no way around it.

Actually, the two aren't the same. And it's outlined in that response from the GM I quoted earlier.

Please make an effort to read it.

I understand your point that it's hard to delineate the two, but it is clearly in the amount of automation that's occuring. A few keystrokes requiring supervision or a volley of keystrokes + afk. Two different issues and mentioned clearly in that response.

Now, I agree that it is HARD to see to difference between the two when you look at the microcosm of those solitary events at a few keystrokes at a time. But when you trace the log there is different activity that is interspersed between these events when you are using macros, as opposed to nothing with bots.

I can click a macro, 3 seconds later, RESPOND to a pm appropriately or change my route, or map somewhere else together.

There's a big difference between the two.

The letter also mentions a gray area, and I'm not sure what that entails but I doubt a gray area violation results in a PERMANENT ban.

In the end this is a semantics level discussion, which as we know leads no where and just more posturing by those arguing for or against.

This will be my last attempt to engage you on this discussion.

Sirius Bsns · Aug 23, 2010, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Light And Peace

Actually, the two aren't the same. And it's outlined in that response from the GM I quoted earlier.

Please make an effort to read it.

I understand your point that it's hard to delineate the two, but it is clearly in the amount of automation that's occuring. A few keystrokes requiring supervision or a volley of keystrokes + afk. Two different issues and mentioned clearly in that response.

Now, I agree that it is HARD to see to difference between the two when you look at the microcosm of those solitary events at a few keystrokes at a time. But when you trace the log there is different activity that is interspersed between these events when you are using macros, as opposed to nothing with bots.

I can click a macro, 3 seconds later, RESPOND to a pm appropriately or change my route, or map somewhere else together.

There's a big difference between the two.

The letter also mentions a gray area, and I'm not sure what that entails but I doubt a gray area violation results in a PERMANENT ban.

In the end this is a semantics level discussion, which as we know leads no where and just more posturing by those arguing for or against.

This will be my last attempt to engage you on this discussion.

There shouldn't be any gray area when it comes to macros. Plus, pming isn't laborious enough to merit macroing it. Changing route? INPUT IT MANUALLY. If you're too lazy to play the game without a macro, it's your loss when you get banned. The only thing that I see saving your behind is the EULA not being explicit enough about mouse and keyboard macros.

Also, it's funny how your case coincidentally involves "farming", wouldn't you agree? I don't believe you're giving us the complete story, but then again, do botters really ever give the complete story? [that's a rhetorical question, btw...] There's no solid way for us guru posters to prove or disprove your story, but Anet can prove whether someone bots or not by simply observing your keyboard and/or mouse input and timing.

In summary, mouse/keyboard macros are the same ordeal as using a program. Macro = Botting.

MisterB · Aug 23, 2010, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Light And Peace

No response from Support yet. It's been 3 hours since I emailed them.

It's taken up to 72 hours for them to respond to me in the past when I contacted them on a 3rd party program issue. If after 72 hours you still have no reply, then you may have cause for concern. Unfortunately, all you can do is wait.

Killed u man · Aug 23, 2010, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Grey area, no point discussing.

They have banned more than enough people who were in a grey area, and some even who were in the clear. (Where GM's specifically mentioned something to be OK)

They have not banned more than enough people who were abusing exploits (Duncan, Speedbooking, ...) or breaking the rules in other ways.

Point being: With NCSoft (they handle acounts, not Anet), you're never sure. The internet is filled with posts by people who got banned for the wrong reason, and even people who admit they hacked/exploited and who still got unbanned afterwards.

BBB's rating for NCSoft is B-, which isn't terribly bad, but in no way something to brag about by such a large multinational...

Light And Peace · Aug 23, 2010, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

There shouldn't be any gray area when it comes to macros. Plus, pming isn't laborious enough to merit macroing it. Changing route? INPUT IT MANUALLY. If you're too lazy to play the game without a macro, it's your loss when you get banned. The only thing that I see saving your behind is the EULA not being explicit enough about mouse and keyboard macros.

Also, it's funny how your case coincidentally involves "farming", wouldn't you agree? I don't believe you're giving us the complete story, but then again, do botters really ever give the complete story? [that's a rhetorical question, btw...] There's no solid way for us guru posters to prove or disprove your story, but Anet can prove whether someone bots or not by simply observing your keyboard and/or mouse input and timing.

In summary, mouse/keyboard macros are the same ordeal as using a program. Macro = Botting.

Now, you're crossing the line by insinuating that I am lying and it coincidenallly involves "farming". Let me be clear, I have a total of 4 active accounts, this is my primary one with 8 characters, I have another that has less characters but is more active without a A/me. I took out my primary because I have a completed assassin on it, where as my active one I play the MOST doesn't. The other 2 accounts are mule/pvp accounts.

So clearly, if it was an issue with "macros" it would have been my most active account that was banned, but it wasn't. It was my idle account with completed characters.

You want the full story. You got it. Do not equate me to a botter. I am not a botter. I use macro's. A botter uses a BOT which is totally different in purpose and function.

If you actually understood what I wrote, about PMing, it would clearly show that I would not be AFK and that I am actively still PLAYING the game as opposed to "auto-pilot."

Now, take the time to READ the response from the GM before you continue your personal soapbox about macro's being evil.

I, like Karate Jesus, have made the deduction that it has to do with TOPK and farming there because of bots. That is why I wrote beward of TOPK as opposed to beware of macroing.

We'll get the full answer in a few days. Until then, READ the GM response. I can't help that your PERSONAL view of the matter is not the same as their stated RESPONSE and stand on macro vs botting, which again are _NOT_ the same thing.

Yaksha · Aug 24, 2010, 12:09 AM // 00:09

For all the people who say macro = botting, please learn to actually find out what words mean before you use it.

A "bot" is a program that can do something independantly (i.e. automation).
If you have to tap a button every few seconds, that's not a bot. If you can go and take a coffee break and come back to find your character still farming away, that's a bot. A bot is not just a "tap this key = these keys". A bot is a complex program, and needs to actually interact with the game world. For something like Guild Wars that has no in-game scripting language, an actual character bots that can play the game is NOT easy to make.

A script is a program written in a scripting language.
A script can be very simple ("when I press this button, send this phrase to chat"), or very complicated. A bot can consist of a number of scripts that allow a character to play the game independently.

A macro is a mapping of certain keys to certain other ones.
It's possible to have macros that contain logic (if/then/else, etc.) and most of the time we still call them macros. But the essence of a 'macro' is that it's there to simplify human-hardware to hardware-software communication. Of course these days the line between macro and scripts get blurred because you can get a piece of hardware (e.g. a keyboard) that lets you 'program' the keys (e.g. a programmable keyboard). And it's entirely possible what you can do with 'macros' on hardware like this will be against the rules, give you significant advantage, or generally piss off people in the player community because they think it's unfair.

But there's a loooong way to go before that kind of script or macro becomes a "bot".

Sirius Bsns · Aug 24, 2010, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaksha

For all the people who say macro = botting, please learn to actually find out what words mean before you use it.

Bot - (computing) A piece of software designed to complete a minor but repetitive task automatically or on command, especially when operating with the appearance of a (human) user profile or account.

Macros - (computing) Any substitution of a collection of actions for a single action. <---typically in the form of G-# Keyboards, Macro Mouses, [insert hardware here], etc...

Believe me, I do my homework.

The only difference I see: software vs hardware. They can both do virtually the same. exact. THING. Regardless of the scripting difficulty levels, botting = botting. Standing here calling my arguement "mere semantics" simply tells me you're trying to take out of scope the very principality of the matter [cheating = wrong!]. Cheating is cheating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

But he didn't use his macros to do ToPK. He just used them to run. And, as far as I'm aware, that's never been something that Anet bans for.

And honestly, macros have been used for years in PvP and never been an issue. He was probably banned because they thought he was a ToPK bot.

All I'm saying is, while Anet might be lenient for the most part, scripting of any kind is STILL against the EULA.

Quote:

("You agree not to use any hardware or software, including but not limited to third party tools, or any other method of support which may in any way influence or advantage your use of the Service which is not authorized by NCsoft, including but not limited to the use of ‘bots’ and/or any other method by which the Service may be played automatically without human input.")

Here, I'm even pointing out the very quote posted by the OP. I rest my case!

Ka Tet · Aug 24, 2010, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

I'm contradicting myself at some points and completely failing to grasp the things others have quite clearly explained at other points.

Indeed, that is exactly what you have done.

Yaksha · Aug 24, 2010, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Bot - (computing) A piece of software designed to complete a minor but repetitive task automatically or on command, especially when operating with the appearance of a (human) user profile or account.

Your understanding of what a bot is, is not entirely correct. A bot needs to do something automatically, as a human user does. What the bot does may or may not be minor and repetitive.

Let me help you with an analogy:
1. On Wikipedia, people are users who make edits. A bot is a program that makes edits and when ran, it makes edits without the help of a person. A wikipedia bot can be as simple as monitoring a certain set of pages and tagging them. This is something that otherwise a person would do, instead this program "bot" does it.
2. On Guild Wars, people are players who play the game. A bot is a program that plays the game when ran, and it plays it without the help of a person.
3. On IRC, people are clients who communicate with each other. A bot is a program that can communicate with other clients, and it 'talks' by sending messages without the help of a person.

I'm not sure why this is an issue for you. The last quote you made, clearly shows that you understand (at least in the context of Guild Wars), that a bot is about something which plays "automatically without human input".

Please compare:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_game_bot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_bot

WoW glider is an example of a MMO bot.

Now we can look at your definition of a macro:

Quote:

Macros - (computing) Any substitution of a collection of actions for a single action. <---typically in the form of G-# Keyboards, Macro Mouses, [insert hardware here], etc...

A collection of actions for a single action is a form of automation.

However it does not allow the game to be played "automatically without human input".

The human still needs to do the "single action" that is a substituion for a "collection of actions".

A macro written in a scripting language qualifies as a script. But as I already pointed out, the term "script" is not very useful because it is far too broad.

However a macro cannot qualify as a "bot" unless it is something that is able to play the game to some level, automated, without human input.

(btw, a person tapping a button every 30secs to trigger a macro is not automated).

Let's end with this:

Quote:

including but not limited to the use of ‘bots’ and/or any other method by which the Service may be played automatically without human input."

A macro is not a method by which the service (guild wars) may be played automatically without human input.

Is it cheating? I dunno. I think the official email that was quoted earlier in the thread explains it quite well - it is in the gray area between absolutely not illegal, and automation.

Shadowmoon · Aug 24, 2010, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Actually there is no grey area, macros are third party programs. NCsoft has right to enforce or ignore it or not. It is their game, they are gods. Remember, when you make the choice to use macros or texmod, it is at your own risk.
Good luck on your appeal, I hope things work out.

Yaksha · Aug 24, 2010, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Sirius Bsns I hope this picture is simpler for you to understand.

The difference between macros and bots is to do with automation and purpose.

They may both be ban-worthy, but they are not 'virtually the same thing'.

Sirius Bsns · Aug 24, 2010, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaksha

long post is long...

Once again... regardless of the level of artificial intelligence, task sizes, difficulty scripting, blah, blah, blah... bots, scripts, macros, anything that automates any input for a player.... IS CHEATING. Blue sky is blue! White clouds are white, red rose is red, cheating player is cheating.

This "single act" is usually initialized just before afking and letting the script/bot do the rest... ... ... -___________________-

The definition of a bot/macro/script is quite clear, constant, and not subject to one's own personal interpretation. They all manifest artificial input, and in online gaming, it's known as cheating.

Once again, while Anet may be lenient with players in GW1, the definition of cheating doesn't change. Their integrity and ethical stance may change, but bots/macros/scripts involve AI, automation, and cheating will always remain in the "cheating" section[when applied to online gaming].

Anet cannot keep track of every single player on GW1, hence the leniency, but there is no shadow of doubt that botting/scripting/macroing your gaming experience is cheating.

-The End-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaksha

Sirius Bsns I hope this picture is simpler for you to understand.

The difference between macros and bots is to do with automation and purpose.

They may both be ban-worthy, but they are not 'virtually the same thing'.

"Purpose" is where Anet cannot rest their judgement based on the "spirit" of the EULA, but only the "letter". In other words, players cannot be trusted. at. ALL. Their purpose must be treated as worst-case-scenario, because otherwise abuse will emerge.

Yaksha · Aug 24, 2010, 04:05 AM // 04:05

You do realize you are arguing two entirely different matters?

Whether macros are cheating, whether they are as bad as bots, etc. That is a matter of debate.

Whether macros and bots are the same thing, is not a matter of debate. Nor are they a matter of personal interpretation. The two words have different meanings and refer to different things.

Also, you are talking about Guild Wars. If you're going to generalize and talk about "online gaming" in general, please do your research first or you look stupid.

For example, Runes of Magic, a popular free to play MMO, allows macros. In fact, in Runes of Magic, there is an in-game macro menu that helps players edit, store and use macros
http://freetoplaymmorpgs.com/runes-o...-magic-review/
(Bots for Runes of Magic exist too, some of them take advantage of macros and the in-game scripting language. They aren't allowed and people do get banned for it)

I believe WoW also allows macros:
http://wow.stratics.com/content/feat...uide/index.php
But not bots (blizzard has a thing about sueing WoW bot makers...)

Ka Tet · Aug 24, 2010, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

Once again... I'm contradicting myself at some points and completely failing to grasp the things others have quite clearly explained at other points.

Have we not all ready covered this ground?

biofrog · Aug 24, 2010, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

...
They have been banning a lot of A/Me and A/E lately. There are a couple of scripting bots used to farm ectos in ToPK that have gained public attention lately and are being used pretty frequently.
...

Dead right there.. I took this picture in Vlox's Falls just this weekend, where it was full of Assassin/Dervish and Assassin/Paragons.

Kula · Aug 24, 2010, 04:28 AM // 04:28

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User_...h_G15_Keyboard

Quote:

Hello Gaile, first time 'posting' here. I was wondering if we are allowed to use the macro keys on G15 Keyboards without getting banned. ArenaNet gave one out for a sweepstakes, so I don't see why we wouldn't be able to. Hope to hear from you soon ^^

Quote:

The keyboard is fine, but as others cautioned, you should not get it so macro'd out that it auto-targets, auto-attacks, auto-picks-up-the-loot, and auto-brew-you-an-espresso-while-you-play.

-- Gaile

Essence Snow · Aug 24, 2010, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by biofrog

Dead right there.. I took this picture in Vlox's Falls just this weekend, where it was full of Assassin/Dervish and Assassin/Paragons.

Those aren't Bots..those are ppl SCing....A/D, A/P, A/N for SoOSC, A/P, A/E, A/N for KathSC, A/Me,A/N etc for others..Vlox is just where they group

biofrog · Aug 24, 2010, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Those aren't Bots..those are ppl SCing....A/D, A/P, A/N for SoOSC, A/P, A/E, A/N for KathSC, A/Me,A/N etc for others..Vlox is just where they group

Yah I guess, but it just looks wrong.. There's something that needs fixing if that many of one type are all doing the same thing repeatedly :-\

Black Metal · Aug 24, 2010, 05:22 AM // 05:22

yeah that's SoOSC

I'd say probably none of them are bots

so back on topic..........